On the validity of the assumption that new EU member state workers earn on average close to the industrial wage, people can have a look at ESRI research (e.g. http://ftp.iza.org/dp4260.pdf) which says that they earn about 18% less, controlling for all other characteristics.
The average industrial wage is about 15% below the average wage nationally, so hopefully it’s not too far out.
[…] from a public finances point of view, workers from Eastern Europe have been good for the Exchequer. A Modest Proposal For Preventing the Foreign People in Ireland from Being a Burden to the Country | … Some quotes: 1. The number of new-EU workers signing on is tiny compared with the total numbers […]
Mayor Quimby indeed. I wonder does he realise the fear even uttering such nonsense generates. The sad thing is that simply by uttering it he has reinforced it in those who already think it and made it a question in the minds of those who don’t. Doesn’t have to have any basis in fact to have effect.
(I’m a South African working in Waterford. Still got a job, paying my taxes, buying from Irish stores, funding NAMA.)
Colm Green
,
Good man ronan.
Donal O'Brolchain
,
Ronan,
Well done. This is a great contribution to
having a civlised debate – teasing out the truth or otherwise of assertion
Would you please send your comments as a personal letter to Mayor Kiely here
and all national elected representatives, through their Dáil email addresses?
kevin denny
,
That Simpson’s episode should be on every public economics course because it is very pertinent. And funny, as the emigrants are deported by Chief Wiggum, the locals hold placards proclaiming “United States for the United Statians”. I remember Evan Davies, BBC’s economics correspondent, singling it out for its insight.
Even more lastly..an important argument is the “instant adults” one: they contribute to the economy and we didn’t have to pay for their education/upbringing etc.
That said, there are interesting issues about the effect of immigrants on the host economy and the benefits depend on who you are. There is no point in pretending that everyone benefits. They do tend to depress wages at the lower end- its competition – but if the services they produce are a big share in your basket of goods (i.e. nice middle-class people) then your real wages rise. George Borjas’ book “Heavens door” is very good on these issues.
Ronan,
Fantastic reasoned response to what is a bit of a voodoo doll subject
Donal O'Brolchain
,
@kevin denny
Good points about the economic effects.
What about the positive effects over time – a different way of looking at things, perhaps some level of doing things differently – all part of the adaptation and change that societies make.
Patrick Pearse’s father was English, de Valera’s father was ?, Lemass was a Huguenot name, Guinness ???, soccer players ?
I welcome immigrants for these reasons in addition to recognising that Irish emigrants had equally tough reception in many of the places they emigrated to.
What if the US took a similar hard line to our illegals – which many immigrants here are not?
Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander….
If this country aspires to growth we need every worker we can get our hands on. We need a young country, not an ageing one. These foreigners are predominantly young. In order to pay pensioners their due one week, enough must be collected through tax the previous (notwithstanding borrowing instead). For this we need labour of all shapes and sizes.
We cannot simply ignore the contribution of these people, or for that matter blame them for our troubles, now that we find our ruling and leadership class has made so many fiscal mistakes.
[…] As always of course – and I do recognise this – much of this is the work and views of a small(ish) minority – most of my fellow countrymen and women recognise that we know as much as any nation about the challenges of settling in foreign lands or the hospitality afforded to our people by foreign governments as a consequence of our own diaspora throughout the late 19th and 20th centuries. We are, in the main, a warm and hospitable people who recognise the obligation on s to provide refuge to those who cannot find it elsewhere but also the merits of managed and facilitated immigration. […]
Derek
,
Love your site, well done.
Jack Onek
,
I am unpleased to read the article but all in all that was about what he means without mentioning positive thing that the immigrant themselve contributed to the state.
Niall
,
Hi,
Very good article,
Your article though is missing something that should be brought into the equation:
It fails to mention the amount of immigrants, both unskilled and skilled, that are working here in Ireland, literally, as the saying goes, ‘taking our jobs’. The economic effects, I think, which, is best explained by an example:
Susan is a qualified Nurse, she has just graduated and found herself unemployed, thus she has joined the dole. She is also capable of doing the same job as an employed foreign nurse
This means the government is now paying a foreign nurse and an unemployed nurse.
Ronan Lyons ,
On the validity of the assumption that new EU member state workers earn on average close to the industrial wage, people can have a look at ESRI research (e.g. http://ftp.iza.org/dp4260.pdf) which says that they earn about 18% less, controlling for all other characteristics.
The average industrial wage is about 15% below the average wage nationally, so hopefully it’s not too far out.
Limerick Mayor calls for deportation of EU nationals - Page 22 - Politics.ie ,
[…] from a public finances point of view, workers from Eastern Europe have been good for the Exchequer. A Modest Proposal For Preventing the Foreign People in Ireland from Being a Burden to the Country | … Some quotes: 1. The number of new-EU workers signing on is tiny compared with the total numbers […]
Paul M. Watson ,
Mayor Quimby indeed. I wonder does he realise the fear even uttering such nonsense generates. The sad thing is that simply by uttering it he has reinforced it in those who already think it and made it a question in the minds of those who don’t. Doesn’t have to have any basis in fact to have effect.
(I’m a South African working in Waterford. Still got a job, paying my taxes, buying from Irish stores, funding NAMA.)
Colm Green ,
Good man ronan.
Donal O'Brolchain ,
Ronan,
Well done. This is a great contribution to
having a civlised debate – teasing out the truth or otherwise of assertion
Would you please send your comments as a personal letter to Mayor Kiely here
Mayor’s Office
Phone: (061) 407347
Fax: (061) 407158
email: mayor@limerickcity.ie
and all national elected representatives, through their Dáil email addresses?
kevin denny ,
That Simpson’s episode should be on every public economics course because it is very pertinent. And funny, as the emigrants are deported by Chief Wiggum, the locals hold placards proclaiming “United States for the United Statians”. I remember Evan Davies, BBC’s economics correspondent, singling it out for its insight.
Even more lastly..an important argument is the “instant adults” one: they contribute to the economy and we didn’t have to pay for their education/upbringing etc.
That said, there are interesting issues about the effect of immigrants on the host economy and the benefits depend on who you are. There is no point in pretending that everyone benefits. They do tend to depress wages at the lower end- its competition – but if the services they produce are a big share in your basket of goods (i.e. nice middle-class people) then your real wages rise. George Borjas’ book “Heavens door” is very good on these issues.
John O'Connor ,
Ronan,
Fantastic reasoned response to what is a bit of a voodoo doll subject
Donal O'Brolchain ,
@kevin denny
Good points about the economic effects.
What about the positive effects over time – a different way of looking at things, perhaps some level of doing things differently – all part of the adaptation and change that societies make.
Patrick Pearse’s father was English, de Valera’s father was ?, Lemass was a Huguenot name, Guinness ???, soccer players ?
I welcome immigrants for these reasons in addition to recognising that Irish emigrants had equally tough reception in many of the places they emigrated to.
What if the US took a similar hard line to our illegals – which many immigrants here are not?
Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander….
Senan ,
Agree with you Ronan.
If this country aspires to growth we need every worker we can get our hands on. We need a young country, not an ageing one. These foreigners are predominantly young. In order to pay pensioners their due one week, enough must be collected through tax the previous (notwithstanding borrowing instead). For this we need labour of all shapes and sizes.
We cannot simply ignore the contribution of these people, or for that matter blame them for our troubles, now that we find our ruling and leadership class has made so many fiscal mistakes.
Embarassed, NI « A Life in Beta ,
[…] As always of course – and I do recognise this – much of this is the work and views of a small(ish) minority – most of my fellow countrymen and women recognise that we know as much as any nation about the challenges of settling in foreign lands or the hospitality afforded to our people by foreign governments as a consequence of our own diaspora throughout the late 19th and 20th centuries. We are, in the main, a warm and hospitable people who recognise the obligation on s to provide refuge to those who cannot find it elsewhere but also the merits of managed and facilitated immigration. […]
Derek ,
Love your site, well done.
Jack Onek ,
I am unpleased to read the article but all in all that was about what he means without mentioning positive thing that the immigrant themselve contributed to the state.
Niall ,
Hi,
Very good article,
Your article though is missing something that should be brought into the equation:
It fails to mention the amount of immigrants, both unskilled and skilled, that are working here in Ireland, literally, as the saying goes, ‘taking our jobs’. The economic effects, I think, which, is best explained by an example:
Susan is a qualified Nurse, she has just graduated and found herself unemployed, thus she has joined the dole. She is also capable of doing the same job as an employed foreign nurse
This means the government is now paying a foreign nurse and an unemployed nurse.
Regards
Niall